Transcript:

You had discussions with him about baseball and you were aware about his love for it? Oh my gosh, yeah. Dare you say anything bad about the Boston Red Sox? And of course his car had that license, his car in those days had a license plate that says something about Boston Red Sox. I’m not 100 percent sure if he still has it, but he probably does.
I started working for him in 1991. So three, you don’t have to know bill very long before you know that he’s a huge fan of baseball and like I said his license plate reflects it but in his office he’s got all sorts of memorabilia. And by that time he had taught sports law once or twice during the years I had worked for him.
So I had already met people, you know, associated with baseball through that class. Oh yeah, you don’t have to know I’m lying. And, and, and do you know that some people have declared Bill as the man who saved baseball? I know, and I have to tell you it cracks me up. Because, I mean, I can’t imagine him being prouder of anything.
I watched him head off to baseball games with pals many times and him talking to Dusty and how he was gonna, you know, sit in the dugout. Back in those days, Dusty was in San Francisco, so. You knew with his teaching the sports law class that he had a, and, and just knowing him, that he had a lot of contacts in the sports world.
Oh my gosh, yeah, and you know he had done. Several baseball arbitrations. Prior to being chairman I, I remember helping type up one of his decisions so he had done some of the salary arbitrations as well so I long knew that he was a fan, and he had a lot of contacts I know he was good pals with somebody up at with the Mariners.
One of the more thrilling days for us in Boston was when Bill threw out the, the opening pitch on Jackie Robinson day. So we should never forget that. Bill, when he threw out the pitch that day, he bounced it in front of the plate, which really aggravated him. And as he went back in the crowd, somebody said to him, well, why didn’t you practice?
And Bill said, I did!
My first year with the Red Sox was 83, and I either met Bill that year or the following year through Larry Whiteside, the late Larry Whiteside, who of course was Part of a program that you know, mentored and taught in at Stanford. Larry, writer for the Boston Globe, covering the Red Sox, a good friend.
And met Bill through Larry. Must have been either at the Oakland Coliseum or maybe in Boston. I’m not sure which. Because Bill often timed those lectures. So they would coincide with Red Sox games, whatever city we were in. I think we’ve seen you in every city, maybe, but Arlington, Texas, at least every American League city.
And we did see you in Kansas City because we went to the Negro League Museum. I know you love the Jazz Hall of Fame there as well. But I think we’ve seen you in every other city, always Oakland, always San Francisco after interleague play started. Always Seattle. Because of your good friend there who was the club president.
Chuck Armstrong. Chuck Armstrong, right. And yeah, I think we’ve seen you. I know Baltimore, especially when you served in Washington. And, of course, Yankee Stadium. Can I ask you a question? Maybe you could tell us a little bit about how your relationship with Bill continued after 1995. And you’re obviously still very friendly.
We can’t tell all the stories here, Joe. Right. Trips to Stanford talk to Bill’s class a couple of occasions. Love your campus. To me, it’s the second most beautiful campus outside of Colgate University, which is one of many awards. Of course, they always take the pictures in the autumn, early autumn when the leaves are turning.
And we played Colgate. We played Colgate in football. Yeah, 40 to nothing. We were happy. I won the bet from my partner, Will Fleming. He was a Stanford grad because I got, he gave me 42 points. It was only 40. But So I made several trips there. There were many lunches in San Francisco. Many late nights at Lefty O’Doul’s.
When that closed. It was right across the street from the St. Francis campus. Weston where we stay in San Francisco, when we play Oakland or the Giants. But we’d see Bill ballparks all over many times in Seattle. We have the many lunches there. What was your place, Bill? Oh Julio’s, Julio’s, Julio’s. Oh, I love that place.
Yeah. Do we ever go, I don’t know that we ever went there. Did we go there together? Several times. Yeah. Oh, real. Okay. I attended the dedication of the park in Dedham, Massachusetts. William Gould, the first and I’m going to be very honored to be the emcee for that. I believe May 28th, the Memorial Day weekend.
But William Gould, the first built the church where my daughter was married. The denim, she was married in 2005 and he did the plastering job. And then there was an issue and he went back and redid the whole church. Yeah. Yeah. He got this, at this time, he was a contractor employing other men, and apparently all or some of them fell asleep during a a period when the concrete had to do something to the concrete.
So that it hardened properly. And when my great-grandfather discovered it, he went back and tore the whole thing out and nearly bankrupted himself in the process. And but what that did was that really enhanced what hurt him badly financially and enhanced his stature and the stature of his sons and daughters.
And then, my own father in in Dedham, the, you know, William b Gove became a, a great name in Dedham. Famous thing about my wife in baseball is that I always tell Joe, I took her to after we were married she came to the United States and I took her to a game of Yankee Stadium, red Sox and Yankees, 1964.
Felix Mantia hit a three run shot. Dr. Strange Glove, Dick Stewart hit one off the left field pole to bring the Red Sox from behind and in comes Raddatz. You know, and in those days, it wasn’t one inning. I think he threw about three innings and just shut the Yankees down. And I said to her, now, do you see what I’ve been telling you about baseball all this time?
And she said, well, I’ve fulfilled my promise to you. What was that? She said, I, I told you I would go to a baseball game with you, and I did.
Was on an email string between Bill and a colleague who is an Angels fan and this Angels fan had every excuse for when the Angels would lose and Bill and this Angels fan would have this back and forth and Bill named this guy, the spin doctor. He said, you always are spinning. Well, I saw that on display for Bill as well.
We were sitting. In the stands of a Oregon Stanford football game in Eugene and Stanford was absolutely getting crushed about the third quarter. Bill turns to me and he says, you know, actually, the fact that we’re losing so badly is a testament to our academic merit and our achievements as scholars. And I thought to myself, boy, who’s the spin doctor now, Bill?
Visited Stanford on January 19, 1989, I believe it was. And and Bill invited me over for lunch to the law school. And of course that was great. We were just going to chat and so on, but I met him in his office. And after I had a clear off some chair, so I could sit down we just started chatting about baseball.
And then he, and he knew I grew up in Wisconsin. And he said, yeah, I said, I was a Milwaukee Braves fan as a little kid. And he said, yeah. And he said, and before that the Boston Braves. And I remember when Hank Aaron broke in with the Boston Braves. And I said, Bill, Hank Aaron didn’t break in with the Boston Braves.
Hank Aaron was a rookie in 1954 in Milwaukee. And I remember, I don’t remember that year, but I remember that fact because I was such a, you know, I’d sit with my father on the radio, listening on the radio at night to the Milwaukee Braves. And he said, No, no, no, no, it’s not right. I said, Bill, I’m sure that’s right that it was night.
So, he said, Well, I’m sure that’s not right. So he goes to his You know, the corner of some bookshelf dusts off the baseball almanac, looks it up, and his face turns red. And he says, Oh my God, how could I have gotten that wrong? And then we went off to lunch, and we were going to talk about labor relations, this and that, and we did, but about every five minutes he’d come back, I can’t believe I got that wrong.
Believe I, I think to this day, he still has regrets about that, but that was, that’s my one trivia about baseball. I I’m very proud of that particular fact, but we share the good and the bad stories about the red Sox all the time. We had to both talk on a panel in Toronto at a an Industrial Relations Research Association meeting.
And he was in Washington at the time. It was in the, in the 1990s. We decided, look we’ll fly to Syracuse, New York. We’ll rent a car and we’ll, we’ll go from there. And, and since we’re both on the same panel, we can prepare what we’re going to. You know, say and make sure it’s all coordinated. We did that.
I got the rental car. We’re driving now. Buffalo is about an hour from Syracuse. I mean, it’s two hours from Syracuse, but it’s halfway to, to, to more than halfway to to Toronto. And we were scheduled to be at a dinner and talk after dinner by 6 30 7 o’clock. But he said, you know, there’s I think there’s a minor league baseball game going on in Buffalo this afternoon, the Buffalo Bisons.
And he said it was beautiful afternoon it was spring, he said, Why don’t we go there we got enough time. So, so we did see only time you know on the way to a conference, who else could could know. That there’s this minor league team in Buffalo and know where the stadium was. He says, it’s just off the highway or somewhere.
And spear of the moment we we went, it was a beautiful afternoon. We sat there, we probably had a hot dog or something to tide us over. And we talked baseball and we, we prepared for our, our panel session in the evening. So great memory but only Bill Gould.
I’ve got a great baseball memory with Bill, which involves an even lower level of play than the minor leagues, which is that I never knew much about baseball. Bill and I wouldn’t talk about baseball very much, but one of my unofficial duties as his research assistant was to faithfully Go out with him to the Stanford practice field.
Many a Sunday morning, bringing along my couple of my friends, and I would pitch batting practice for Bill, and I didn’t get many probably didn’t get many pitches even over the plate. But nothing, I think, I don’t think I’ve ever seen Bill happier than on the occasions when he really launched a pretty good hit off of one of my pitches that had somehow managed to get into the strike zone.
He just, he was like, it really reminded me of the highlight of my own baseball career, which was probably when I was about nine and 10 playing in the backyard, you know, the pitch catch field. He just, just reveled in it. But we would do that you know, weekend after weekend. And it would just always make him as be a little kid again, I guess.
Bill would come to the games on the road. He would never let me leave him a ticket. And I said, man, look at that. At that time, they didn’t cost anything. I said, Bill, I can leave you a ticket. He goes, no, Dusty. He goes, I don’t want it to be construed of any kind of political favors. I said, what, you know, what is he talking about?
This guy’s paranoid. And so next thing I know, a couple of years later, he was called, I was called by some board that wanted to know that I leave him tickets and you know, what our relationship was and, and then you know, Peter saw it on the, on the past list, cause they would go over the past list every day.
And so he asked me, did I know this Gould character? And so I said, well. I could tell by the way he said it because I wanted him to start talking. So I said, well, not that well. Why? And then he told me, you know, about his side of the story. And I was like, well, I’ve heard a totally different side of the story.
And so. You know, bill and I became, became friends. I mean, every time I’d come to Oakland, every time I’d come to San Francisco after I left, or, and then I’d see Bill, you know, on the road. Quick question. Maybe Bill you, you, you can answer. Dusty talked about, you know, con the, for lack of a better term, investigation into, you know, who you were getting tickets from or whatever, and
Was that a con, was that congressional staff or what? Who was doing that? Well, well, what happened there was that you know all car, I, I sent a handwritten note to Dusty when during the season and I was going to meet him. And I, I may have mentioned the ticket business and I said, dear Dusty.
So the Republican said, Who is this Dusty? What, what’s your relationship? What is your relationship with Dusty? And, and they thought that Dusty was a woman and , so, you know, so they didn’t know anything about Dusty Baker, you know, from this dear Dusty and, and . So you remember that? Do you remember that?
Dusty? I think. Oh yeah. Yeah, they thought I was a woman. I said, well, I guess they don’t know baseball. I didn’t know me, you know, but that was a, but on the other side, they asked me, who was that? Who is this ghoul character? That’s exactly how it was. I’d always look forward to speaking to his law class. I don’t know how many times I’ve spoken to him, maybe 10, 15 times or more.
And you know, when Al Adams was, was in good health. And before Leonard Coplett Coplett died, I’d always joined them and I always felt smarter after I left, after I left the school, but the kids were looking forward to hearing me and I was curious, you know, to hearing you know, about them and I was always curious to see, you know, the outcome of, and I’ve, I’ve talked to a couple of students at the ballpark a few times and just wondered how, if any impact that we had, on them and their and their lives.
But I know that Dr Bill had a tremendous impact on on many, many young people’s lives. That’s the one thing that I always think about when after After we met was in the summer of I think it was the summer of 93. You know that that was a that was five years of fabulous summer, you know, because your team, the Giants.
Wow, everybody. Everything went so perfectly that summer and I came in the clubhouse one time and you said to me. What what are you doing here? You’re supposed to be in Washington because you knew that the president had already nominated me. And I said, Oh, you know, the republicans got you. Got me tied up in knots.
And you said, I’m going to talk to somebody who will be able to help you, I think. And I don’t know if you want to talk about that. You go ahead. You go ahead. You said you said to me that the couple of the owners were. Or wanted to be very friendly with you and, Right. You were very friendly with, and Shenine was very Yes.
Or you, you and Shenine had a good relationship and so you went to Shenine and you told Shenine about my situation. And Shenine as a result of your conversation with Stein, he gets in touch with Ted Kennedy and Oh wow. And they, and they invite me. To a dinner with Kennedy. You know, I wasn’t the only person there about 15 people or so that I get to go to this dinner with Ted Kennedy and I get on his radar.
You know, Kennedy, Because he’s the chairman of the labor committee, and he determines whether or not the this thing will move quickly or not. And and they scheduled right after that they scheduled the hearing. I, I on a few weeks after I met with Ted Kennedy. I always think of that. In the early years, you used to mention, it seems to me, in some of the talks you made to the students, you mentioned this yourself.
Well, you know something, and that’s, that’s, that’s You know, strange that you remember that, I mean, which I did vaguely, but at the time, you know, when the team was sold you know, to the, to the, some of the groups not there anymore. But I mean, we had some of the most powerful influential people in, in California and in the country, you know, there was Charles swab was part of our ownership.
There was like you said, showing stain was, I mean, he befriended me. He was great to me, you know you know, Larry Nebby was great to me. He was, you know, he was on the board and so was you know, Harmon Burns came later. Let me see Rochester big and tall. Mr. Mrs. Soof, you know, was there.
The the largest insurance man, Dick Goldman, you know, were there and, and you know, Mr. Greer, Mr. Phil Greer as, as well as. You know, the other Fisher family. And so all these people came together to save the Giants in San Francisco. I probably left out quite a few. That was as close to ownership as, as I’ve ever been.
And you know, I, I, I haven’t approached ownership that way, probably again until. Till now that I’m in Houston, where you feel comfortable enough to go to bat for somebody that they know that they can be very influential, you know, in somebody’s lives. And you know, that was, I mean, that was huge.
And I look back upon it, I’m like, you know, I didn’t know the arena that I was in, had no idea. All I was just doing was just trying to help and take care of a friend with with with some of the owners that, you know, that I considered friends. You know, you’re not allowed to stand around behind the case, but that bill is always somewhere between the batting cage and the dugout.
And you know, he’s never in the way. I mean, never. You know, he always just observe. And I’m curious bill about, about what your observations were. You know, at times when you were there, because you would never, I mean, I mean, every once in a while, you’d ask him, say, Hey, man, is this guy? Okay. And I’ll say, yeah, he’s hurting a little bit.
He goes, well, you know, I can see him limping a little bit or whatever, but he would never pry. I mean, what, what were you observing bill? Why you were there? Because I’m curious about that. Well, I, you know, I really I always have the the feeling rightly or wrongly that What a guy is gonna do in batting practice sometimes has a, a lot, you know, the way you, the way you feel, the way you your, your swing is loose.
You are you feel as though your, your eyes on the ball and you know, you come there and see some guys. Bam, bam, bam, you know time after time. Well, you just had a, it’s like, it’s like you talk about going to a basketball game. I went to a basketball game the other day and watch practice and three point shooter.
Missed every shot in practice. You know, this does not bode well. And sure enough, in the regular game, it did not. This is Hauser with the Celtic. It did not bode well. Of course, you would introduce me to a lot of players. One of the last times we were together, I think it was not this past season, but the season before you would introduce you brought up Jason Castro to me, right?
The catcher, you know, whom I hadn’t, I hadn’t seen since Stanford days. You know, you Mark Mark Marcus had sent Castro over to my office to To talk to me about salary. He was writing a paper on salary arbitration and boom. Here I come out to the ballpark and you, you, you, you know, the Stanford connection.
And so you brought him out. And one night you you introduced me. I’ll never forget this as long as I live. Hank Aaron. You had Hank Aaron in there and Kevin Mitchell and somebody else was there. Do you remember that? Oh, yes. Yes, sir. Just a wonderful, but I wanted you to meet, I wanted you to meet Hank. Cause I know that you would really, really appreciate it.
And and I wanted Kevin to, to, to. You know, to meet Hank and you, because at that time, I mean, Kevin’s, I still, one of my favorite players at me every birthday, every holiday, you know, he, he, he sends me some form of correspondence, but I mean, that was important. See, it wasn’t only for you, but it was for Kevin as well.
Yeah. To, to surround Kevin with, with successful people and, and regardless of what life. You know, walk a life that you’re in to, to, because, you know, Kevin was, was one of my prize pupils and, and you know, you know, he had kind of a rough background, you know, like he could have gone either way. And so, I mean, I remember that encounter.
Yeah, I wanted to meet you, because I doubt he’d met anybody. Ever met a professor really take the truth, especially Stanford law professor and and, and, and Hank Aaron was, I mean, these guys heard me talk about Hank Aaron so much. I mean, they probably got tired of me talking about Hank Aaron, but this guy was one of the most remarkable.
Ball players and one of the most remarkable men that I’ve ever met. I mean, what was your encounter like with him? Oh, gosh. Well, you know, I was you know, it was like being in a dream, you know, to, to be there. I said, I, you know, there’s no way I can ever recapture that, that, that And I always remember you talking to you.
You were the person asking questions of him and you would say, and hammer you would call him hammer and I always remember that hammer. What about this? And oh boy, I what a night that was. I said, you know, nobody. I wish there was a film of this because no one would ever believe, you know, that I kind of walked on water that, you know, being there with the two of you guys.
And of course, I knew about your relationship with him when you had first come up with the Braves. And I think, your family Had a connection with him and somebody asked Hank to Hank Aaron to look after you to make sure that everything went well for you when you, when you first came up. Well, you know, Bill Hanks the reason, honestly, between him and Orlando Cepeda was like my father.
I mean like my uncle and Hank was like my father, and sometimes, I mean, probably even more for you. I mean. You probably never look back on the, on the influences that you had on, on your pupils, you know, and sometime. Sometimes the players come back to me, you know, and say, Hey man, I’m sorry. You know, like you had my best interests at heart, but I didn’t, I mean, that makes you feel good when your pupils come back to you and, or sometimes they’ll say Hey man boy, I thought you were hard on me, but that was one of the best things that happened to me.
And I’m sure that. You know, Hank used to always get on my butt all the time about everything about nutrition about working out about going to sleep about getting your proper rest and focusing and concentration and, you know, do you ever have students come back. You know, to see you. Well, I feel that I do from time to time, you know, usually when they have these special events and they’re all, there are a few that I remember very well.
And they, they seem to remember me, of course, particularly the kids who were my work closely with me. You know, like a bench coach would be to you research assistant to me these kids who I worked Very closely with and there are a number of them. Sometimes you feel as though are you really making an impact?
But there are other times when these kids come back and and we’ll talk to you and say that you’ve done particular things for them and remember particular incidents and Things were involved. You know, one thing I always remember in our meetings was that one time I was sitting in the stands and you saw me in the stands and you said, Bill, you’re shouting to me, Bill, Bill, and you kept pointing in the direction.
You wanted me to meet somebody. And it was your father. Your father was just a few rows over from me. You wanted me. And I know that you had such an open special relationship with your father. I feel that that’s something that you and I have in common. I had a very special relationship with my father.
I feel as though he’s as I said, you know, in this book that I wrote about my great grandfather who escaped from slavery. I feel that my father was the greatest man that I ever met. And I feel that I remember that day so clearly when you, you steered me over. He said, Bill, go over there. I hadn’t met your father.
We met that we introduced ourselves as a result of the fact that you steered us. Well, Hey, I thought my dad, I still think my dad’s greatest man ever met too. Yes. I always tell, tell my son, I said, man, if I could be just a portion of the man that my dad was in their day. And sometimes people. You know probably get tired of me talking about my dad, but I mean, but you know, my dad and mom were special people.
You know, you know, they were, they were you know, very high morals. They were very strict. You know, they were, you know, both are in the NAACP when I was a kid, I was in junior double ACP and I really didn’t understand a lot of it or having to go to church or having to get good grades, but I, I, I’m a direct you know, result of, of.
And my dad used to tell me that that love was discipline and I was like, man, I think you’re giving me a little bit too much love, you know? But, but, but it’s I mean, it was fact and it’s, it’s, it’s and they believed in you. They believed in you. Yes, they did. Sure. You remember going back to 1972, the Red Sox lost the pennant that year because they played one or two games less than the tie.
I think it was the Tigers who won the pennant. And, and, and Red Sox lost because they played fewer games, plus Louis Aparicio tripping, running around third base, losing a game that would have caused the Red Sox to win, to win the pennant. I was actually, I was actually at, I was, I had tickets for opening day and I was visiting a visiting professor at Harvard Law School that year and, and I had tickets for opening day at Fenway and.
Actually, I did go to opening day of Fenway when the game finally resumed a week or two later, and oh, you know, again, my mind, Dusty, when we talk, my mind goes back to Hank Aaron, and Hank Aaron I’ll never forget seeing Louis Tiant. You know, pitch against Hank Aaron when Hank Aaron came over and finished his career with the Milwaukee Brewers and I think that was the only chance that Hank ever had to avail himself of the designated hitter rule because it only started in 73 and Hank was getting towards the end of his career and then seeing, seeing A matchup between Louie Teont and Hank Aaron, unforgettable.
But Bill, Bill, you know what I remember the most, I swear, of all the things, I remember The times when, when I was invited to join Leonard Coppett and, and Al Adams with you. Oh, I mean, those, those were amongst the best times. And, you know, Leonard actually gave me, you know, by his comments and by what he would tell me, you know, he probably gave me more confidence as a manager that I was doing the right thing, regardless of what anybody else was saying than any other.
Person especially any other media person. I mean, cause he, I mean, he would, I mean, he would tell me that I was, I was a very good manager and I was just starting and, and he would always tell me, Dusty, you know, and he’d give me these quizzes about, Hey man, you know, in this thing, and you did this and that, but, but, but, but, you know, he’d say that was brilliant.
And I’m like, really? And, and I’m telling you, I mean, I miss those. Those, those conversations. And, you know, Al would always tell me, I say, Al, man, you know, what, you know, how come they don’t load me up like they do other managers. And he’d say, Dusty, you can win more, you know, with less. So why would they load you up?
Yes. And you know, a lot of times I can hear him talking to me. And, and they kept me motivated. And like I said, even though I was talking to the law students, I was actually learning from, from, you know, from Al and from you and from and from Leonard Coppin. Well, the students and I think Dick and Alan can back this up the students because they’ve been talking to a lot of my former students.
They really you know, they were thrilled having you participate in that seminar and and also the students had you I think a number of times we’ve had you speak to the student body at large. As well as participate in that seminar. And I think of the days, remember that Leonard and I would come down at the end of the game and Leonard would you know, tell you, we would kind of run through inning by inning.
Well, yeah. And I, I. Again, it’s like meeting with you and Hank Aaron that time. That will never happen to me again. You know, it’s just it’s just a one in a lifetime phenomenon. And oh, I think, I think back to those days with the great warmth and And affection for you know, you and the work you did and our friendship.
Thank you. So Mary Lee, the class wasn’t very old. No, and we didn’t have any of the stars. So when I found out all the people who’d been to your old classes, I was really jealous because we just had built, I mean, that was nice. But it, it would have been, it would have been interesting to see some of like the dusty bakers and all come in too.
It wouldn’t have taken away from him. It just would have added to it, but we just, we had built it was early on. You know, we learned a lot about collective bargaining agreements because that’s what he was interested in at that time. And so we spent a lot of time on that. You know, I think collective bargaining agreement was on the exam.
That’s the 1 thing I remember on the exam, like, shoot, here it comes. So. Yeah. My name is Kate pay. I graduated from Stanford law in 2003. I am the associate head coach of Stanford women’s basketball took labor law from Professor Gould in my second year at the law school. I was actually a JD MBA student.
So I was taking classes for. Four years. Well, I guess three years really at the law school. And then I also took sports law from him. I certainly entered law school thinking that I’d like to stay involved with sports after graduation. I didn’t know in what capacity. I just remember being aware that there was a sports, sports law class.
I was involved with a predecessor to the WN, WNBA called the American Basketball League. It’s formation, it’s creation, it’s ultimate folding and then the WNBA. So. As a player, kind of, kind of involved in some of those experiences, that was a natural area of interest for me. I took labor law from from Professor Gould my mother who unfortunately is no longer with us was a lifelong English teacher at community college and was the chief negotiator for her teacher’s union.
So that was always in areas of interest for me. So after I’d taken labor law, I think maybe that, that gave me an end to get into the sports law. Class with Professor Gould, Hannah Gordon. I graduated from Stanford Law School in 2008 and I’m the chief legal and administrative officer of the San Francisco 49ers and I took sports law from Professor Gould.
Very coveted. It was hard to get into. Everyone knew what that elective was, and it was only offered every other year, and there was always some fear if you were a second year. You might not get in because there would be preference for third years, but you also wouldn’t have another chance to take it. So I remember being nervous.
About getting into the class. Because I was a two all that year. And I was really excited when I got in. I liked that. It was a smaller class. I didn’t know quite what to expect. And so when we showed up the 1st day and Dusty Baker, like, sat there and just talked to us for an hour. I was like, wow, this is really cool.
This is unlike any others, you know, lock school class I had taken. And it just continued to be great for the rest of the time. Just kind of share two. I have two, two of my strongest memories from law school, and again, it feels so long ago, and just so different from what I’m doing now. One is a really hard one.
I had labor law. First period on September 11, 2001. And I remember waking up and having the TV on and kind of seeing what was going on. And, and I’m sure like any of us who lived through that, not understanding, not knowing how to process. So I got in the car and, and drove to school, not really knowing what to be doing.
And I remember sitting in class and professor Gould. And again, his, his, some of the characteristics that we’ve talked about in terms of his kindness, his, his sensitivity, his, his kind of comfort, his leadership, his really came through in that in a really hard moment, and he just kind of was a very kind of consoling figure in a very tough moment and just told us all that this is not where we need to be.
It’s, it’s time to go home. Of course, later that day, classes were canceled, et cetera, but you know, that’s something that I feel really fortunate on a really hard day like that to have been in his, in his presence. So that was a hard memory. One of the best memories was I got to meet Willie Mays in his class.
And I will, that is something as I was raised in a sports family. My brother and my father both played football here at Stanford. Sports has really been the way I was raised. Obviously it’s, it’s been a huge part of my life continues to be Willie Bays, Mays was my father’s hero and to meet him in person, as Hannah said, you know, you’re in a really small class sitting around this table and.
I just like, I’ll never forget it. And just the size of his hands, you didn’t have a baseball glove on, but they might’ve, might’ve well have been a baseball glove. I just, I, it’s just, I remember it like it was yesterday. So I owe it all to professor gold that I have those. I think it’s interesting that there’s three women on this.
You know, when you think about often who’s going to go into sports law, I think it’s terrific that he picked, you know, you guys to be here and not the traditional, you know, men who are often on these panels. And that’s in part a tribute to him and who, you know, who he resonates with. And it’s not based on, you know, traditional gender roles.
And I think that’s terrific. I mean, and that, that, that really defines Bill who makes his own road. And, and, and, and follows that it doesn’t feel that he has to do things to be just because other people have done them. Mr. Adams is actually one of the adjunct professors when I took the class so he was there for every session.
And we just loved him, like we just wanted to adopt him and Professor Gould I think to Kate’s point, you know, by the time. I took the class they were in a more grandfatherly stage of life. And so we just sort of all wanted them to be our uncles or grandpas or something. Cause they were just so delightful as human beings.
And also just the stories that they could tell about these eras in sports were just incredible. I also remember Bill Duffy who’s a big basketball agent came and spoke to our class. And for a lot of us who were interested at the time in the agency side of the business, that was very exciting to have someone who was such a successful agent come talk to us.
And he was also, again, I think just because the type of person that Professor Gould is, he attracts other kind hearted thoughtful, smart people. And so in a business that can certainly be portrayed if not in actuality is maybe not the most seemingly businesses we got exposed to kind of the best of the sports business.
Really enjoyed that. It was known at least those in the class that we were going to miss class on three days. Giants opening day, the A’s opening day, and the Red Sox opening day. We weren’t supposed to say why we were missing class because the administration was not real fond of that. But so if Bill couldn’t bring them in, he apparently was just going out to see it.
In the class, we covered a pretty wide range of aspects of sports law including certainly labor law, which obviously comes up in a lot of contexts, and especially in my last job with the National Football League Management Council but the thing I actually take the most I would say and tell to other young law students now is the perspective around what sports law is and is not because we talked very early on in the class about whether or not sports law is a practice area or whether it is just an industry and one to which all practice areas actually apply for the most part.
And I tell that to young law students that all the time who say they want to go into sports. And I tell them, you should figure out what is it, the practice area that you really love that you think you want to apply to sports. It could be transactional. It could be litigation. It could be labor law.
It could be criminal defense work. It could be antitrust. It could be. I mean, it could be employment law. It could be so many different areas on the intersection, but I really think that perspective on what it meant to be a lawyer in sports helped shape my understanding and was very useful for me as I started out my career, I will say one of the things.
That I was aware of at the time and I’m certainly aware of looking back is that part of what was special about Professor Gould’s class was how inclusive it was I think, you know, Professor Gould being one of the first black law or the first black law professor at Stanford, the fact that Mr. Adels was the adjunct professor, the speakers who we had come, like I mentioned, Dusty Baker, Bill Duffy, Bill Duffy is one of the most, you know, influential people.
Black sports agents. And I think, and he made sure that the women in the class were equally represented and heard. And he didn’t do that in any way where he was saying this is what I’m doing. It’s just the way that he is. And so I think I looking at how other, you know, other schools or other classes or other places are certainly other environments I’ve worked in.
That was actually a very unique and special way for people to be introduced to sports in a place where everyone belonged. And so I’m really grateful for that being such a positive experience. He doesn’t miss an opportunity to talk about baseball. Yeah, I, you know, I was working for him at the same time I was taking his labor law class.
So it took me, it didn’t take long, but I was in his labor law class in the fall of 1986. Which may have some relevance to anybody in those ways, but I was, you know, I, I, and a couple of my classmates, including my, my first year roommate were fanatic Mets fans at the time, and you know, our class in the middle of October, all of a sudden we get noticed that labor law is being canceled for the week of whatever it was, October something, because Bill has canceled class so he can fly to the East Coast for the World Series.
World Series started in New York. So, And the Mets lost the first two games at home, and the following Monday, I’m in his, Bill’s office, talking to his assistant, and Bill is on the phone, and I, you know, I, he wants to speak to me, so I pick up the phone, and he starts talking to me about the series, and how it’s, you know, New York is You know, out of it.
And I said, Bill, what’s that sound I hear? And he goes, what’s that? And I said, it sounds like somebody’s choking. And he goes, boy, are you confident? He goes, oh my. He goes, in New York, it’s like a gallows here. But, whoa. This is a tribute to Bill. And I love Bill. And for that reason, I will wear this. But this is not a Red Sox hat.
This is Team Bill. Right here. I will wear this, but only for you, Bill. I also had the benefit of taking his class, his sports and the law class that he had started in the mid to late 80s, which was a seminar. And, you know, that’s, you know, that, that truly allowed, you know, people to see who Bill was, because, you know, he would bring in, he taught it with, I think, with Leonard Coppett, who was a writer, I think, for the, one of the New York papers, and then for the, the San Jose Mercury News by the time you’d come out to California, and I think Al Adels was one of the regular instructors and then we would have visiting, you know, visitors who were, you know, practitioners either lawyers or agents or sometimes coaches.
I remember Bill Walsh came. And discuss, you know, just the football business and the issues of around, you know, sort of the labor law issues of sports, you know, free agency, the antitrust exemption, you know, the issues in contract negotiations, the issues in representing players and, and the like, you know, one of the most fascinating classes that you could, you could ever have if you were, you know, at all interested in sports and the business of sport.
And you get to see Bill because he got to interact with people joking around with. You know, with, you know, his friends and his acquaintances who would lend their time. And they all lent their time because everybody loved being around Bill, you know to this day, getting time with Bill Gould is one of the greatest pleasures I have any time, you know, just spending time on the phone with him is.
I always leave with a smile on my face. So I, when I applied for the job and came in for my first interview, I don’t think I was really the most qualified candidate for the job. I don’t know how many people applied, but I, I wasn’t especially qualified. But I think what, maybe what pushed me over the edge is that I’m a Red Sox fan and so is he.
And so that came up during our interview and I’m sure it helped me get the job. And you know, the years that I was working for him, it wasn’t, they were not particularly good years for the Red Sox, but You know, we just had a shared interest in baseball and we love talking about sports, whether it was baseball or basketball or hockey, you know, he’s, he has a very broad range of interests among sports.
And so like whatever was happening at the time, we would always want to talk about. We never really knew who was going to be in his office and probably the most exciting visitor was. When I was one day I was just sitting in his office having a conversation about something I don’t even remember what about and Dusty Baker walked into his office.
And as I recall, he said to you, Oh, this is my friend Dusty. Yes, yes. As if it were no big deal. Exactly, exactly. And I think I remember if I remember correctly. You know, he, he he introduced me in the same way. So he didn’t say, Oh, this is my lowly research assistant, Chris. He said, Oh, Hey, this is Chris.
You know, he’s maybe like, I’m some other, you know, another friend of his, you know, that reminds me of one other little anecdote, which is that. You know, as an example of how Bill was always interested in, in other people, not, you know, of course he had so many of his own interests, but really he was just a caring person who was interested in other people’s perspectives too.
And so one example was that during the time I worked for him was when Jeremy Lin, the basketball player from Palo Alto, became this huge sensation playing for the Knicks. And of course, we were, we were both just very excited about this as a sports phenomenon, but he also was very curious to get my view.
view about, like, what does this mean for you as an Asian American? You know, is this, is this significant you, for you? And if so, why? And I think that was just shared his, his, like, his genuine warmth and interest in, in other people’s perspectives.