Kate: I’d love if we could start this conversation by getting a better sense of what the current state of indigent criminal defense in the U.S. really looks like. John, I’d love for you to start us off.

John: Yes, well, of course, the big background of this particular issue is the American criminal justice system, which among affluent countries is a very harsh and some might say regressive system with lots and lots of indigent individuals being brought into the system where the system has rather harsh possible penalties.