Transcript:

So for those of us who don’t know, can you explain what the National Labor Relations Board is and what it does? Sure. We’re an independent federal government agency. You know, we’re part of New Deal legislation. And, you know, one of the agencies that was found to be, our statute was found to be constitutional.
And so here we are, all these many years later, we enforce You know, the National Labor Relations Act, which gives employees the right to organize or not to organize. You know, that’s, you know, what we’re here for to give employees the right to organize or not. And so people can come to us and file unfair labor practices or file petitions for an election.
When Bill was becoming head of the NLRB that was significant to you. And how, what was the significance, not only you. But to the NLRB about his coming there. Well, I mean, it was significant for me personally, of course, because it was the start of my career, but I think that it was big for everyone because, you know, he, he was an academic coming in and I think that was, you know, somewhat unusual.
He was also the first black chairman, I believe. And he came in with a lot of new ideas. He was very behind using Section 10J of the National Labor Relations Act to get injunctions. I mean, it’d been in the statute, but it wasn’t, you know, much used. And so, you know, he was very instrumental in encouraging people to use, use that section of the act.
And what is 10J? It allows us to go into district court and get injunctions. And that obviously became significant with regard to the baseball strike. Indeed it did. Okay. So in 1994 is that the baseball players went out on strike and it got a lot of publicity and there was a lot of attention turned to the NLRB about what role that it may have.
That’s right. So, Were you following the baseball strike? And with any particular interest at that point with the anticipation that NRBL might become involved in it? I remember quite well seeing some of the injunction documents you know, with a, a, what do you call it on the bulletin board with a thumbtack.
And remember thinking, Oh, this, you know, this, this is pretty cool to be working in this place at this time. And I knew that Bill was in heaven, right? Because the only thing closer to his heart than labor law. And, you know, his wife and family is baseball. You were aware that that the possibility of using 10 J to impact the baseball strike was, it was a possibility.
Oh, yeah. And, and, and as you said, is that 10 J had really not been used very much before. And I may have been more aware of it than some because, you know, he talks about it in some of his books and I had worked on, you know, roughly three of his books and articles so you know I probably was a little more familiar than some.
And thinking about it, do you think this is a perfect place to use 10 J Did you think about it in that context. You know, I don’t know if I thought of it in the context that it was the perfect thing because I hadn’t ever really seen it much used. But I did, you know, I remember once I heard that’s what they were going to do I thought, Wow, I mean I just remember thinking, Wow.
You know, this is really great. It can have a lot of impact when it’s used in the correct situation and it did right. Look at what it did. Yes. And so in terms of it, it’s the action being filed. You remember the action. Did you have anything to do? Did you work on it at all? I mean, everybody in the agency knew what’s going on.
And by then, even you. While that was going on and I wasn’t yet employed. I knew I would be so you know NLRB is in my head and and you you remember the file then and you remember that it was in front of judge who was a district court judge at the time. Judge Sonia Sotomayor. Well, of course, at the time.
Her name didn’t mean a single thing to me. Yeah. But, you know, now, and looking back on them all, wow, how unbelievable is that? And so, in terms of just joining this organization, the NLRB, and seeing it doing something that you knew that your boss was in love with, baseball, and for being, you being, you’re being able to watch it close up, it must have been pretty exciting for you.
It was very exciting. And do you remember discussing it with anybody either in or outside and then people were interested in it? Yeah, I mean, there were definitely, I mean, mostly the men in the office, but there were a handful of them that were pretty interested in it because they were interested in baseball.
And then there were the more kind of, I’m going to say academic types in the office that were, you know, interested because it had 10 J was being applied to it. And we, You know, we just didn’t use 10 J much. And even now it’s not, it’s not a tool we use often. We think about using it often, but we don’t actually use it often.
And for 10 J to be used as my understanding is that the National Labor Relations Board itself had to vote on whether to bring the action and seek the injunction. And you’re viewing it as this is going on is that you understand what a significant role that bill had in the decision making about whether to file the action and how to file the action.
Oh, yes, for sure. I understood that and You know, just in my head, as I’m thinking about, I’m thinking, my gosh, this man is already died and gone to heaven. And he, he hadn’t, and I think he came relatively shortly before the injunction was filed, is that correct? And that was, that was one of the first big things he worked on.
Yes. And so we filed the action and. Judge Sotomayor granted the injunction and I know that Bill was heavily involved in resolving the strike back in the 90s when just after you had become manager of the Giants and your experience there and later years. I’m envious, I’ve learned that Bill has had a press pass For probably the last 50, 55 years, which allows him to wander around the fields and clubhouses and so forth.
And that he and that he, he met you on the field way back when when maybe you were then a coach with the, with the Giants. Do you have any memories of, you know, about the time that you met Bill and, and how you got to be friendly and your, and your How you saw bill as a person and as a fan.
Well, you know, when I first saw Bill, I mean, you know, he has a very pleasant demeanor about him. And, and, and he had a pleasant You know, face and you know, he didn’t say very much, but, but, you know, what he said, I could tell that he was, you know, higher education. And then he up telling me he was a law professor at Stanford.
And I was like, well, how do you know so much about, you know, about baseball, the history of baseball and, and in particular, you know, the American league and, and, and even more in particular about the Boston Red Sox. And then at the time I really didn’t know what nationality, you know, Bill was it really didn’t matter but I was, I was curious, you know, I thought he might have been, you know, you know, Portuguese or Spanish or something.
You know, along those lines. And then he told me, Hey man, he was African American. He told me about his history and about his family and, you know you know, being from, you know, from Boston. And then, I mean, that really got me curious you know, of, of some of the racial things that he probably went through, not probably, but definitely went through and you know I was just curious about.
You know, him as a person now, he was curious about baseball and I was curious about. about him, you know, about how you get in this position, how do you get hired in that position, you know, how long you’ve been there. And I was always, always like curious about Stanford because I never probably had the grace to get in Stanford, but I knew a whole bunch of, you know you know, young people that went to Stanford, especially being from Sacramento area.
And so and then at the time I was spending a lot of time at Stanford because I knew you know, one of my mentors as well as Al Adams, but one of my main mentors is Bill Walsh. And so I’d go up at the Palo Alto all the time. And and talk to him. And so, you know, we just had a, you know, a great friendship with Bill.
You know, I’d see him on the road sometimes. And then we had even more in common. You know, when we talked about you know, the strikes, you know, which I’ve been on both sides which is a very, very uncomfortable situation to be in, especially as part of management. I was really curious about you know, some of the strike issues that we went through.
Also the strike issues that, you know, cause he was appointed by, by Clinton for the you know, the labor relations board. And you know, and, and he had settled. I was curious about, you know, how his involvement and selling the strike, all of these people who we’ve spoken to just love bill and not just from the substance of the classes they have, although he’s been you know, obviously a huge influence and and in their legal education and many of them becoming labor, labor lawyers themselves.
But. emphasizing how kind he is and how much he would do for them outside of, you know, the pure teaching and, and how much he cared about them and that they, and that they, he cared about them and they care about, they care about him. Bill told me that both you and he are close to the iconic Red Sox broadcaster, Joe Castiglione.
Joe has been quoted as saying, That that bill saved baseball at the time of the strike, bill played a major role in getting all of that resolved. Do you have any memories of that or any comments with respect to that time? Well, you know, I remember, you know, that I was told that if I continue to, to be on the side of management that I would, I wouldn’t have a side to be on.
You know, and you know, I was like, well, and see, I was a little different because I had been on every strike that there, that there ever was at every work stop is that there ever was, because my first year is 1972. And that was the first. Stoppage, right, bill? Yes. Yes. Yeah. The pension. Pension Nstitute.
That, that was my rookie year. And man, and then I was in 76. I was in 81. I was in all of them. And so you know, had it not been for, for Hank Aaron and some of the older players taking care. Of me and taking care of us as young players, because, you know, we ran out of money in about two or three days and you know, they would loan us money, you know which, which one alone, cause they never made us pay it back.
And then, and then when I got in that position, you know, I remember Bob Welch and Dave Stewart and some of these guys in 81, you know we were stranded Rudy law. We’re stranded in. In St. Louis with, with no way to get back home. We had our own playing with the Dodgers. And so, you know, some of the older players, Reggie Smith and myself and Davey Lowe.
So, I mean, we were loaning money to, for, for some of these kids, it had come cut like, like full circle. And I remember that I just told the guys. You know you know, to stay together and that’s what I and that’s the same thing that we were told, you know, back in the day I probably would’ve gotten trouble had it gotten out, but I mean, that’s what we were told make sure you stay together.
And I had talked to Bill, you know, Bill Walsh, cause they had some serious problems with, with some of the stars crossing the picket line you know, during the football strike when he was the the, the head coach of the 49ers. And you know, he had told his guys the same thing, you know, whatever you do, make sure you, you, you, you know, you stay together.
Don’t, don’t worry about me, but you guys stay together. And I remember like you know, talking to bill, you know, about it at the time and I mean, we didn’t know what we were going to do. I mean, it looked like we were not going to go back to work. I said in 81, we were out 50 days and you know, we were going to start the season almost right.
Bill, we’re going to start the season on strike. Right. Yes. Yeah, that was the that was the time that strike was the time the owners said that they’re gonna operate the season, they’re gonna run the season with minor league players. Yeah. And and they figured that hey, once these major league players see that these kids are out there.
They’re going to cross the picket line. The only guy, the only owner that was sympathetic to the position that the NLRB took in that strike was Angelo of Baltimore because, you know, maybe he was more. Sympathetic to unions and some of the other owners, but also Ripken, you see, it would have disrupted Ripken’s consecutive game streak had had the season started with minor league players as they had anticipated doing that.
I didn’t think about that, Bill. I swear it’s the first time I ever heard that. Yeah, that makes sense. So, so so yeah, so we were able to intervene and get an injunction just before the season was to begin. I think it was at midnight when it at midnight or something, right? Well, we went in, we went in, we got into March 31 or April 1.
We, you know, I think the season was going to begin then. The next day or so, Judge, as she was then, Sotomayor gave us the injunction that we have voted to, to to, to, to obtain, to, to rescind the owner’s changes in free agency and salary arbitration. And once we got that the, oh, the players agreed to come back to the field.
And the strike was over and and then they negotiated ultimately a new collective bargaining agreement where I think we, so, so the season, the season was delayed a few weeks because you know, everybody. Had to get back to training, you weren’t even able to have spring training, but Bill, that was the worst time of my whole baseball career.
Yeah, I’m talking that was that was the worst time ever. And that’s where I felt the epitome of being middle management, you know, because I was, I wasn’t a player. But the coaches and managers pension is held in the, in the players with the players union, the, the our medical and dental plans are held with the players union.
And, but we’re getting paid by, by upper management. Yes. And I mean, and that was an ugly situation where, where, you know, the, the number one draft choices and, and the kids, they thought were gonna be the best. They were. Put way down the lower 40 so they wouldn’t have to be involved in that and then up in the upper 40, you know, we had, you know, the players that were going to take the big league players job and and play and some of them had to do this in order to, to You know, pay their bills.
And I was trying to be sympathetic and understanding because a lot of these kids, I mean, this is the closest they were going to get to the big leagues ever. And this is the most money they were going to probably make ever. But then on the other hand, it was gonna screw the, the big league players that were holding out, you know, for better conditions or better salary or whatever.
So. Boy, that was, oh, I’ll never forget talking to my coach, Dick Cole at the time he said, he said, John, this is, he called me, John, he said, this is the ugliest situation that, that you could ever imagine. And he goes, and I can’t stand and I couldn’t stand it either. And I asked my dad, I called my dad, I said, Dad, what do I do?
And because I was forced to, to tell the, you know, the The players that were taking the other players places they wanted me to talk to him. And so I said, I said, I said, Dad, what do I say? And my dad tells me, he tells me, he said, son, you got to talk to him because you’re getting paid by management. But he says, you go up there and say a lot of nothing.
So, Bill, I take it. I take it the key at that time was you getting me and you and the NLRB getting me in touch. Oh yeah, that was the key. And were you then involved in the CBA? No, no. No, no, I wasn’t, we weren’t, and You know, we precluded from getting loaded from that, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the earlier they had tried to kind of person who could have gotten involved was would be a mediator, but they had had a mediator and the players lost faith in the mediator.
That’s really how. The matter came to us because you know, the the owners kept saying, Hey, we want to go ahead with mediation. The player said that that’s just not going to cut it. And so that’s when we became involved. He saved baseball from itself. The parties had lost the opportunity to have a world series that year, the year before they were going into the next season.
And it didn’t look like they were going to have much of a start of a season at all. And as a chairman of the board, he found a way. To issue an injunction to get them back to work and to settle that strike. There had been some very famous mediators who had tried before and failed. The parties had thrown themselves back into their respective corners.
And here was someone, because of the love of baseball, his respect for the game, and his deep understanding of the law, and, and finding that unique And unique aspect of the law that allowed him to intervene probably is, is he’s the only person in the world who could have come up with that because of that and his tenacity that was not easy to do.
He was not welcomed. in that dispute when he first came in, because neither side knew what he was going to do. And neither side was sure they really wanted to settle at that point in time. So it’s a, it’s one of, I’m sure, in his own recollection, highlights of his career. But one that those of us who, who respect collective bargaining, respect dispute resolution, know when the time is right to do something that is creative and, and, and unprecedented is, is, is a real art form.
And he found a way to do it in a very critical Point in time. So I went to the back of the book and it says, quote, if Major League Baseball. I really love this Joe. I don’t know if you still feel this way. If Major League Baseball ever awarded a Nobel Peace Prize. It should go to Bill Gould for effectively ending baseball’s nuclear war, the strike of 9495.
During his tenure as NLRB chairman, in his new book, the distinguished law professor has chronicled the game’s history of labor and racial relations. From his unique perspective. Who is that great quote from bill? That’s from my buddy, my buddy here. I recall that huge deal for me because our company at the time stopped our paychecks.
I had a clause in my contract. Most broadcasters got paid, but myself and my partner did not. I, TV guys got paid and other radio guys that was American radio at the time. And so I had two kids in college and it was pretty critical at the time. I had to double tuition to pay that we get reinstated.
So it was certainly a very meaningful for me. Dusty was also very anxious to see this come to an end but he was able, I think, to get the He was a really in a quandary because he got the continue to get licensing fees from the union and had he allied himself with management I think the union would have sat down and had a talk with him, but Oh, that’s right.
So the managers didn’t get paid either. No, the coaches. Yeah, I don’t think so. I think, I think his income was, I think his income was licensing. From from the union. Let me, let me ask you this Joe, and great quote from the back, you know from the back of the book you’ve been quoted as saying that, that Bill, you know, Bill is safe safe baseball.
During that time. How bad was that situation? And it almost seems like the major leagues. This is maybe an exaggeration was sort of in a death spiral, you know, at that point in the big at the beginning of the season. Maybe you can describe what were your feelings about what was going on and what bill did and what the NLRB did?
Well, I think it was nuclear war and baseball is probably the it. Worst period that I’ve ever known, I remember we were on a, we have a family trip and I had one son and my daughter with us, Minnesota to Baltimore, we flew to Baltimore and I, what, August, I think the strike started on the 11th of August, August 10th we left Minnesota after the night game flew to Baltimore.
And that night we got rained out in the third inning at Baltimore and that was it. We were all stuck, no charter flight home. Of course it was Baltimore, not that hard to get home to Boston. But, I remember, I think he would be a few days and it kept dragging on and on and talks were cut off.
They had us do a talk show, myself, Jerry Truppiano, my partner and myself, general talk show on the flagship station for a couple of weeks. And that continued and I got a notice October 15th that the paychecks would be prorated the rest of the year, which actually through the following February because we’re paid year to year and certainly very difficult news to swallow from a financial standpoint.
But I missed the game so much. I mean, that was. That was the biggest thing. I think we, we played about 110 games that year before the season ended. And then I recall the announcement by Bud Seelig that the World Series was off. Of course it dragged through the entire winter. They came up with the replacement players situation and I didn’t like that.
But I was glad cause I could work at least we did those games, which were difficult. I mean, everybody was. We play with three steps slow and no power. I remember we had a first baseman, I think his name was Don Barbera, and Dan Duquette, who was the general manager, described him trying to run as Fred Flintstone trying to start his car.
Legs going. So, as the strike was dragging out and getting nowhere, at some point, The role of the NLRB and Bill’s role became evident and that the way to solve it was through the NLRB. Do you remember when you first became aware of the significance of the L-R-B-N-L-R-B and Bill in terms of ending the strike?
Probably not until it did end that bill issued the the order. And then Judge Sadama ear, by the way, is a great Yankee fan.
The camps, I remember it was a glorious day when the camps were open and we didn’t know when the season would start. I think it was about three weeks later, four weeks later, but it was. One day or two days before the scheduled opener with the replacement players? Yeah, I think so. I think we, we we went into court on March 31 and I think Sotomayor issued her order on April one.
So that was just before the regular season was about to begin. They had, they had opened the camps with all of these guys who would be there. Would be the replacements you know, as you, as you indicated and, and they I can’t recall. I didn’t go, you know, I didn’t go to any spring training game that year because it was, it was considered to be, I think, too explosive for me to to appear at anything like that.
And, and so I, I just laid low. I was in Arizona
In mid late March and gave a talk there at the law school, University of Arizona Law School. And, but I didn’t go to any games there. And then I came back and that’s when we Had our meeting and we voted on this and and decided to petition. We didn’t know what judge we would get. That we by the, I guess they have a wheel there in the Southern District of New York and we went into New York because we went into New York because the headquarters of both MLB and the Major League Players Association is in New York City and and petitioned Sotomayor, who was then a district, district judge.
I know she, the Yankees now have have lauded her for issuing this injunction, but I don’t think they were at the time. I don’t think many owners were, but I remember we were, we did 15 to 20 spring training games. And I remember we went on the road. I remember going to West Palm beach for a game against Montreal, which is the other side of the state here.
from Fort Myers and went to all the ballparks. There were not many fans. And, you know, trying to get to know the players. We had a new manager that year, Kevin Kennedy. And a new coaching staff. And then I don’t recall if we had actually gone home for the opener or spring training games that ended, but we did go back to the Boston area.
I remember cause I watched my son playing college ball at Stonehill college watched him play at the time. And then we came back maybe 10 days later to Fort Myers for a second spring training, which I think was three or four games, maybe 10 days. And then the season opened with one game against the Minnesota twins at home.
Red Sox had a great start that year. I think they went into first place in mid May and stayed there. So Bill, how did the NLRB and how did you begin to get involved in the strike as it dragged out? Well, you know, we were when the strike began in August of 94 we had no involvement in it. I remember, you know, and I, I, I, I wrote this in this bargaining with baseball and also in an earlier book I had written on my.
NLRB experience that you know, the White House was very careful not to talk to us about the merits of about any case. You know, I remember one time when I was When I began, I was up there and I was talking to an assistant to the president, and I said, I guess you’re really unhappy with what we did on X, Y, Z, and he said, Oh, no, he said, I, we have strict instructions not to talk to you about any case, but on this baseball thing, I remember being at the White House before we got involved in, and we went through the receiving line and President Clinton said to me, yeah.
Oh, the NLRB. Now, if you could, if you could solve this strike, you would make me president for life.
But, but at that point, it was right around that point, I think he had named Ussery, William Ussery, who had been Secretary of Labor. In Ford’s administration in the seventies, a well-known mediator he had named us usy as the mediator, and thus he real usy had I, I don’t know. When the players filed unfair labor practice charges alleging that the owners had refused to bargain in good faith.
Which is, which is what eventually me involved and the board involved in this thing. But USRI had control of this most of the early part of 1995. And he didn’t wanna let go of it either. He, he wa and he wanted , the NLRB to stay out of it. And he called me and said that. You know, if we intervened, this would hurt his mediation of the dispute.
And so I listened to him. But then I talked to you know, Mick Abner, Vic Mikva, who was the President Clinton’s counsel, the counsel to the president. And I had gotten to know Mikva, you know, Mikva used to be in the house of representatives, he was on the court of appeals and he I got to know him when I first came to Washington and he said, let me get back to you.
And he said that the I said, the mediator is saying to us, we shouldn’t really get involved in this. Because it’ll it’ll work across purposes with his mediation. So he got back to me and he said, No, he said the meter mediator has lost the confidence of the players. And and so you should know that we’re not telling you anything about what to do.
But the the players have lost confidence in him and without the players, he has no role to play. So so after I heard that I went back to the board and put this on the front burner and then ultimately, I think around March 26 or so, we took a vote and it was a three to two vote to.
Obtain an injunction in federal district court. This is we use this particular provision of the National Labor Relations Act, which allowed us to get into federal court on a on an expedited basis in this in this case, we used it very frequently and a whole bunch of other labor disputes in the past, more than any other any other NLRB had ever done.
Prior to this period and we used this and, and that’s how we petitioned Sodo ma what, what turned out turned out to be Sotomayor and within the NLRB. What, what there was, was it present? You were gonna get the vote, that three to two vote, or was it up in the air? And what were the arguments made against?
By, made by the dissenters. Well, the arguments basically by the dissent. I mean, it was basically a question. It was down to a question of of two basic issues. One was you see, under this is inside baseball, but under labor law you both sides have a duty to bargain to the point of impasse.
Deadlock and the employer cannot make any unilateral changes in working conditions prior to impasse. There were two issues. One was had they bargained to impasse. And the other was The owners took, they recognized that they hadn’t bargained impasse on salary arbitration, but they said salary arbitration is not a mandatory subject.
This is why I say this is inside baseball, a mandatory subject to bargaining in order to have an obligation to bargain to the point of impasse. It must be over a mandatory subject of bargaining, which directly affects wages, hours and working conditions. These that salary arbitration for reasons which are probably too complicated to go in here into here today was not a mandatory subject.
And we rule the majority of us. I can’t remember what the dissenters said about the salary arbitration issue, but they didn’t believe that the. They believed that the owners had bargained to impasse. I mean, the and it was clear that there was more bargaining that was going to take place. And and the, but the but the it was clear that they they had made these unilateral changes.
They changed free agency. They changed the arbitration system, and those changes that they made is what opened the door for the analog be to come in and to to on the grounds that the owners have not bargained in good faith to the point of impasse because they have made unilateral changes prior to deadlock prior to impasse.
That’s what, that’s what, and the, you know, I, as I recollected the dissenters were simply saying that everything was deadlocked. I don’t r recollect what they did with the salary arbitration issue because salary arbitration obviously affects wages for the, for the, for a good chunk of the baseball players.
And I could go into this in more detail, but I don’t know that you know did you argue the case before judge? No, no, the, the general counsel’s office argued it. I, I should. I was thinking about going flying down to New York. I didn’t go down to New York. For the oral argument and general counsel’s argument argued, it must, must have been March 30, 31, just right after we authorized it.
And I think it was the guy who argued it was the regional director of the NLRB in, in New York City, a guy named Dan Silverman who was an old timer at the NLRB and whom I had a lot of contact with. You had been a friend for some period of time and had gotten to know Bill. I certainly remember Larry Whiteside.
It’s just a great journalist. Did you, when did you put two and two together? That, hey, you know, the NLRB was bringing this injunction, Bill. You know, was chairman of the NLRB and he was the one really behind all this. Or is this something that you realized afterwards? I think I realized it after the fact, because it was certainly not public knowledge at the time that this was happening.
And I think bill, we did some email about, I was asking whether you could do anything and. That was early in the process and it was not clear that you could or would.
I don’t know, it just seemed like meetings where arbitration was being held, that mediator was there, that nothing was happening, went back and forth, and there was never really any optimism that they were about to, to settle, and, you know, as I say, they were Day or two away from replacement baseball and regular season play.
Unfortunately, that never happened. But you know, the after effects are, I think what happened in baseball led to so many things, including the steroid era. We got baseball back on the front pages because people were very angry. Tenants was certainly down 95 and 96, I think. And then, you know, you started with that home run record chase.
And you know, I, I remember.
So I understand what was, what’s the connection between the strike and the steroid era? Well, I think it was a direct result of baseball was struggling or popularity to get fans back. And when I think we realized, well, we weren’t sure, but baseball sort of turned a blind eye. When McGuire and Sosa and others were hitting all these home runs that they were using steroids, and I think they did that because they wanted to get baseball back.
on the front burner after it had really paid a severe price for this long strike. The owner’s mantra during this period of time, I later saw was that hey, if the NLRB does not intervene, we’ll start the season with these minor league players. And once the guys in once the bargaining unit players, the major league players see that they will come back in a hurry and the strike will be broken.
So they saw as it was explained to me, particularly after we had done the deed. They saw our intervention as wrecking the strategy. So every time I came to Fenway, I assured them I always had to pay for my own seats. Oh, we’d like to have you here. So I guess, no, I’ll, great, I’d love that, but I’ll pay you for the seats.
They didn’t take into account what the fans would think. About the game being played by these minor league players in the interim and right. The only guy who was really sympathetic to us was Angelos of the, the Baltimore Orioles because Ripkin wa would lose his record for consecutive games played.
If the owners have gone ahead and started the season with minor league players, and he also is a labor attorney, right? Yes. I think probably more sympathetic on labor issues generally, but he, he was really very concerned about that. And he was the only one who I saw during that time is What do you, what do you think would have happened if the injunction had not been brought or if, or if Sotomayor had ruled against the NLRB and the strike continued with, with those players?
Do you, would it have been ended in, in your view and basically real disaster for baseball? I think it would have been a disaster. I don’t know if players would have caved. Donald Fair was not a very compromising sort. I didn’t have a lot of positive vibes from him. And, of course, Marvin Miller speaks for itself.
He’s certainly put the Players Union to the position it was. Association. I hesitate calling it a union because they never honored anyone else’s strikes. Right, Bill? That’s right. That’s right. And umpires or concession workers or whatever, but I don’t know if they would have came. They may have, I think some players wanted to but I think it would have been the log drawn up out of, we probably wouldn’t have had much of a, a 1995 season.
And I think TV would have objected, maybe voided their contracts too, that I could have a World Series with. You know, guys have been released five years ago, or because the only minor league players that were urged to play in replacement play baseball with those that they figured were non prospects had no chance to make the big leagues.
Right. Could you sum up. The importance of baseball to America and the importance of Bill in saving the game. Many more can identify with it because everybody can play the game. You don’t have to be a giant and everyone’s played some form of it, whether it’s softball or wiffle ball or even hardball. And I think that’s, that’s a big factor why people think they’re experts.
And almost everybody that a fan considers. himself or herself an expert. And I think that’s a big part of what makes baseball the record books the stars and it’s its impact on society. I mean, baseball integrated a year before the armed forces did seven years before Brown versus Board of Education before the schools did.
So I think baseball’s impact has been tremendous, sometimes underrated. They’re undervalued. But it has been a great part of Americana certainly in the 20th and even here into the 21st century by almost a quarter of a decade. So I think that that’s really critical for baseball. What, what Bill did is, is very, very important because we don’t know what would have happened to the game.
Certainly the record book would have been skewered and that’s a, that’s a big part of things. I mean, the asterisk for Roger Marris, which was next, next. Not really ever put into a record book, but the implication of that and I think that would have certainly caused some major issues as, as the steroid era has to for that now, but it had tremendous effect on it.
And I think stopping that strike, getting back to it at the time and baseball certainly paid the price for a long time, but you saw so many little effects. It used to be that, you know, any, any ball that was yeah. kept on the field to play without going into the stands was not going to be given to a fan.
And that changed right away. Players giving baseballs to fans have been urged to do so. So the little effects were huge. And you know, we, I think the game’s thrived. Steroid era bothered, I think the purists more than The fans, they didn’t really seem to stop coming to the ballpark because of steroids, they like the home runs, but there were so many factors and so many unknowns of what would have happened.
I don’t think replacement baseball would have lasted very long. I think probably when it got right down to a TV would have pulled a plug and that would have been the end of that. But yeah, what Bill did. In issuing that, I think, was so critical and the timing was perfect just before opening day, just before this happened.
Knowing what I have learned, I certainly would hope that Bill would get more notoriety for his big role in stopping the strike and getting the game going again. Maybe because, you know, you’re the chairman of the board it didn’t get out there as much as Judge Sotomayor got out there publicly, but I think that you know, I was introduced, Bill, as the guy that stopped the strike when I introduced him to players or managers and anyone who experienced the strike.
I don’t know if younger players understand that. I mean, it’s been, what, almost 30 years. Most of them weren’t born at the time that was going on, but I think the impact is tremendous and I’m glad you’re doing this to get the truth out there, give credit where it’s due.